| Self-Determination and Conflict Resolution From Kosovo to SudanSpeech by Louise Arbour, Carnegie Council, September 23, 2010  
	
		| It's pretty clear in the cases of Kosovo, Sri Lanka, and Sudan that   there is an actual source of deadly confrontation linked to a theme that     is very current in our reporting, which is the clash between the   principle of   territorial integrity and the right to self-determination. It is a clash   that   takes place at the confluence of law, politics, power, economics, and   the search   for identity. |  Self-Determination and Conflict Resolution: From Kosovo to Sudan (Audio) Self-Determination and Conflict Resolution: From Kosovo to Sudan (Video) 
 IntroductionJOANNE MYERS: I'm Joanne Myers, Director of Public Affairs Programs,   and on behalf of the Carnegie Council, I'd like to thank you all for joining   us. 
 It is a great pleasure to be hosting one of the most distinguished members of   the international community, The Honorable Louise Arbour. Ms. Arbour is currently president and CEO of the International   Crisis Group. The ICG, as it is often referred to, is an independent, not-for-profit   non-governmental organization that is known for its commitment to promoting   peaceful resolution to conflicts. It is also one of the best sources for information   and reports on conflicts around the world.
 
 I know that there are many in the audience who are familiar with the extraordinary   career of this eminent legal scholar and have followed her journey from law   professor, to judge, to serving as a former Chief Prosecutor for the International   Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda, to UN High Commissioner   for Human Rights. Still, for those of you who are less knowledgeable, I hope   you'll take a moment to review her very impressive résumé before   she begins speaking about "Self-Determination and Conflict Resolution:   From Kosovo to Sudan."
 
 The right of nations to self-determination is a principle recognized in international   law and states that nations have the right to freely decide on their political   status or form of government without outside interference.
 
 The principle does   not state how the decision is to be made or what the outcome should be. Neither   does it state what constitutes a nation. In fact, there are conflicting definitions   and legal criteria for determining which groups may legitimately claim the right   to self-determination, which has, in turn, led to an increase in the number   of conflicts within states.
 
 The most recent example is Kosovo. In the mid 1990s, Kosovo, a largely ethnic   Albanian nation, sought independence on territories long held by ethnic Serbs.   Conflict between the two culminated in the 1996-1999 Kosovo War. But when the   war ended, the international negotiations to determine the final status of Kosovo   were unsuccessful.
 
 In February 2008, the Kosovo Assembly voted unanimously for   a unilateral declaration of independence from Serbia. Serbia rejected this,   claiming Kosovo to be part of its territory. Nevertheless, on July 22 of this   year, the International Court of Justice [ICJ], the United Nation's highest   court, ruled that Kosovo's independence from Serbia was legal. This ruling could   strengthen aspirations for other ethnic minorities around the world in their   quest for independence.
 
 While there are many ticking time bombs, the one that grabs our immediate attention   is what is to take place in the Sudan when a referendum on the independence of Southern Sudan is held in January 2011. It is expected   that Southern Sudan will vote to secede from the North, which will, in turn,   raise intractable problems. The question is, what can be done to limit the potential   for violence?
 
 Although the ability to direct parties in conflict is often limited, one can   facilitate the process by proposing alternative methods of engagement towards   peaceful resolution of conflict. Our speaker knows this so very well. Throughout   her career, Louise Arbour has shown the world skilled leadership by her moral   courage, tenacity, and her determination to seek peace through justice. In her   position as head of the ICG, she continues to do just that.
 
 Please join me in giving a very warm welcome to our very distinguished guest   today, The Honorable Louise Arbour.
 
 Thank you so much for coming.
 
 
 Remarks LOUISE ARBOUR: Thank you very much Joanne, and thank you to the Carnegie   Council for Ethics in International Affairs for giving me an opportunity to   speak to you today.
 I realize there are a few Canadians, and maybe even native   Quebecers, in the room, and I'm sure they are very nervous to think that I'll   be talking about a subject that has occupied and preoccupied so many of us for so long. But I'll tell all   of them, just relax. I'll stay within the Kosovo-to-Sudan landscape so as not   to make anybody too nervous.
 
 Since 1998, the International Crisis Group, of which I have been president for   about a year, has supported independence for Kosovo. Back in 1998, which   was still at the height of the conflict between NATO and the Serb government,   Crisis Group took the position that the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia had been   unwilling to permit the free exercise of the Kosovo Albanians' right to self-determination   and that Kosovo was now entitled to create its own international status separate   from the Federal Republic of Yugoslavia.
 
 The view of Crisis Group was that the   denial by Belgrade of Kosovo Albanians' political, economic, social, and cultural   rights meant that they had a right to seek self-determination externally.
 
 Since then, Crisis Group has published 46 reports on Kosovo. Our most recent report,   which was published in August 2010, included a quite controversial recommendation   that international actors should not prevent Kosovars and Serbs from negotiating   together on issues that could include land swaps, as long as their talks would help   them put a final resolution to this conflict and would lead to a recognition   of Kosovo's independence by Serbia. But our position on Kosovo's independence   has remained the same throughout, which is that we support Kosovo's right to   secede and to be recognized by the international community as an independent   state.
 
 In May 2010 we published a report on war crimes in Sri Lanka in which we detailed very severe violations of international   humanitarian law, both by the Sri Lankan government forces and by the Tamil   Tigers [LTTE], particularly during the last four or five months of that   terrible war,   which they had waged for a period of over 30 years.
 
 The evidence that our investigators   gathered suggested that in these last few months of the war tens of thousands   of Tamil civilians—men, women, and children—were killed. Many were   wounded. They were deliberate attacks. There is, we suggest, credible evidence   that there were deliberate attacks on civilian targets, on hospitals, and an intentional   shelling of civilians by the Sri Lankan forces. There is also evidence to   suggest that through the chain of command, the responsibility   is within the top of the government and military leaders.
 
 We called for an international investigation into these alleged war crimes in   Sri Lanka. We felt that this had to be an international investigation, given   the demonstrated lack of political will or capacity for genuine, credible domestic   investigation inside the country.
 
 Yet, despite the increasingly authoritarian   regime in Sri Lanka and its still appalling treatment of the Tamil minority,   Crisis Group believes that the best means of ensuring the Tamils' right to self-determination   is still within the existing borders of the Sri Lankan state. We have actually   published a report on the Tamil diaspora urging Tamil leaders outside Sri   Lanka not only to renounce explicitly the LTTE methodology,   but also to renounce its separatist ideology, if it is to play a useful role   in opening a political space for the accommodation of the Tamils' right to self-determination   inside the existing state or Sri Lanka.
 
 In Sudan, the South self-determination referendum, which is scheduled   for early 2011, if genuine, we are persuaded like most observers that it   will produce a very strong vote for secession from the North. The Comprehensive   Peace Agreement [CPA], which was signed in 2005 between the North and South   and ended 20 years of very brutal warfare, provides for that referendum. It also   envisaged that the Khartoum government, during that five-year period between   then and now, should have implemented reforms to make unity attractive. That's   the language of the CPA. Failing that, a referendum would have to be accepted   as the method for determining the future of the South.
 
 Very little progress has been made in this project of making unity attractive.   It's fair to say that the conflict   in Darfur provided a pretty catastrophic distraction from the North-South   project. We have been supporting the implementation of the Comprehensive   Peace Agreement. The goals of unity having failed, we have urged the international   community to support the referendum process and to accompany—if that's   the result—the creation of a new state of South Sudan in Africa.
 
 The Kosovo, Sri Lanka, and Sudan conflicts are only three of approximately 60   conflicts that the International Crisis Group covers and reports on. We publish   approximately 80 to 85 reports per year, covering conflict situations all over   the world. We put all our work product on our website. We work from the ground   up. We are not driven by any particular national interest or ideology.
 
 The reports are prescriptive for the most part, not only descriptive. We take   them and engage directly at the highest possible levels with leaders in Washington,   New York, Brussels, and increasingly in emerging centers of important decision   making, particularly in the global South, in order to promote the peaceful resolution   of conflict and, if at all possible, the actual prevention of the flare-up of   armed conflict.
 
 It's pretty clear in the cases of Kosovo, Sri Lanka, and Sudan that   there is an actual source of deadly confrontation linked to a theme that     is very current in our reporting, which is the clash between the   principle of   territorial integrity and the right to self-determination. It is a clash   that   takes place at the confluence of law, politics, power, economics, and   the search   for identity.
 
 Crisis Group has dealt with a variety of situations in the last several years   where conflict, including armed conflict, was triggered either by the purported   exercise of the right to self-determination or by efforts to resist it. In many   cases, secession claims are rooted in a history of repression, exclusionary   visions of governance, or the denial of rights of minority groups, which drives   these groups to pursue self-determination outside the confines of state borders.
 
 I mentioned the three, but I could just as easily have included Somaliland and   Montenegro, where we have supported independence; northern Iraq, where we have   defended the unity and territorial integrity of Iraq; or Abkhazia, South Ossetia,   Nagorno-Karabakh, Aceh, or Kashmir, where we have avoided taking an explicit   position either for or against secession, but all cases where secession is the   movement and claims continue to be advanced.
 
 We believe at the Crisis Group that every conflict situation is different, and   our work and analyses are profoundly contextual. That's why we feel very committed   to working directly from the field. Having said that, especially when we see   this landscape of self-determination claims, it is useful to explore the contours   of this right to self-determination, in order to ensure that the prescriptions   we offer for conflict prevention are well anchored in law, as well as in political   reality.
 
 Let me turn briefly to the legal framework. The thrust of my argument   starts from the basis that neither the right to self-determination   nor the principle of territorial integrity can a priori trump each other.   There is no dominance of one principle over the other. It's only by understanding   when and how the right to self-determination properly applies that we can effectively   put in place processes which will stand some chance of averting or rapidly ending   secessionist-based conflict.
 
 The recent opinion of the International Court of Justice on the legality   of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence provides a useful but certainly   not dispositive backdrop. On July 22, 2010, the Court rendered its nonbinding   opinion on the question that was posed to the Court by the General Assembly.   The question was as follows: Is the unilateral declaration of independence by   the provisional institutions of self-government in Kosovo in accordance with   international law?
 
 I don't propose to engage in a detailed analysis of the opinion, but it's critical   to observe that the Court was very careful to articulate the narrow scope of   its opinion. It concluded that there was no rule of international law prohibiting   that declaration of independence and that in the circumstances Kosovo's unilateral   declaration was not in violation of international law. The Court, however, went   no further. It explicitly refrained from ruling on the legality of secession   itself. It ruled solely on the legality of the unilateral declaration.
 
 It sounds   like a very subtle point, but it's absolutely critical. As such, it did not   address the efficacy of Kosovo's unilateral declaration of independence or of   the level of international recognition that it attracted in actually creating   an independent sovereign Kosovo state. The ICJ's opinion in that case may or   may not lead to a wave of additional recognitions for Kosovo's independence.   These will be political reactions to the Court's opinion.
 
 As the Court points out, some unilateral declarations of independence in the   past have been specifically repudiated by the international community. It mentioned southern   Rhodesia in 1965, northern   Cyprus in 1983, and Republika Srpska and Bosnia in 1992.   Having surveyed these cases, the Court found that there was no international   law principle, as such, prohibiting unilateral declarations of independence.
 
 In the cases of repudiation, this was very contextual and based on   the fact that in southern Rhodesia, Republika Sprska, and northern Cyprus there   was the reality or the expectation that these secessionist movements would be   accompanied by the unlawful use of force or other egregious violations of norms   of international law, which was not necessarily the case elsewhere.
 
 While secessionists elsewhere would be wise to take limited comfort from the   Court's opinion in the Kosovo case, equally would those authorities who currently   assert the sanctity of their existing borders as an absolute bar to any secessionist   demands be very wise not to take any comfort from the Court's opinion.
 
 The ICG's Kosovo opinion leaves unanswered the important legal question of whether   a right to secession can be found in the right to self-determination, and if   so, in what circumstances. For that we need to examine the right to self-determination   itself.
 
 This is a right that is expressed in Article   1 of the United Nations Charter and also in Article 1 of the two   most important international human rights instruments:  the International   Covenant on Civil and Political Rights and the  International   Covenant on Economic, Social, and Cultural Rights. It says in all these   documents, "All people have the right to self-determination. By virtue   of that right, they freely determine their political status and freely pursue   their economic, social, and cultural development."
 
 Even though it's formulated not as an individual right, but as "the right   of a people," it does belong to the body of international law that concerns   itself directly with individual rights, even though it's said as "the right   of a people," rather than rights of states, and it is considered a general   principle of international law.
 
 The third paragraph in the Preamble   of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in my view has tremendous   significance in the context of the right to self-determination and to the peaceful   resolution of conflict. This paragraph in the Preamble reads as follows: "Whereas   it is essential, if man is not to be compelled to have recourse, as a last resort,   to rebellion against tyranny and oppression, that human rights should be protected   by the rule of law."
 
 Since self-determination is a fundamental human right, I suggest that it should   be protected by the rule of law if man is not to turn, as the Preamble states,   "as a last resort, to rebellion against tyranny and oppression."
 
 It's   unclear whether this "recourse to rebellion" is meant merely as a   description of a potential reality or whether it contains an acceptance that,   in the face of tyranny and oppression, rebellion would be not only inevitable,   but actually justifiable. But on its face, the right of peoples to freely determine   their political status unfortunately does not address specifically how and when   this right is to be exercised.
 
 Whether the right to self-determination includes an entitlement to full   state   sovereignty, therefore, requires the examination of another principle,   which   is the principle of territorial integrity of states. That principle is   often advanced to block any secessionist claim. The International Court   of Justice, in its consideration of the Kosovo case, made an important   observation—namely,   that the scope of the principle of territorial integrity is confined to   the   sphere of relationships between states. By contrast, the right to   self-determination   deals with relations between states and people.
 
 It's an important distinction. It invites us to consider that when these principles   appear to clash, they should be interpreted in a way that maximizes the fullest   effect of both. I suggest that we must seek to reconcile these apparently competing   principles. International law has developed a framework to try   to give the fullest effect to both these principles.
 
 It has asserted that self-determination is a right that must be   initially fulfilled   internally—that is, within the boundaries of existing states. This   imposes on sovereign states serious obligations regarding both   democracy—that is, participation—as the preferred method for a people to   freely determine its political status, and, of course, the protection   of minority rights to ensure the fullest protection to the free pursuit   of people's economic, social, and cultural development.
 
 In that way, international law will protect the territorial   integrity of a state as long as that state's government represents all the   peoples on its territory without discrimination and in full respect of their   right to pursue their own self-fulfillment. This right is to be guaranteed and   includes the protection of language rights, the freedom of religion,   freedom of speech and assembly, and so on.
 
 When a state proves unwilling or unable to provide for this internal fulfillment   of the right to self-determination, that right may become an external right.   At that point it may override the principle of territorial integrity by providing   to "a people a right to secede from the parent state."
 
 This has been recognized in very narrow circumstances, but particularly in cases   of people under colonial rule or under foreign occupation—although in that   sense one might argue that it's their own territorial integrity that would be   restored. Arguably—and this is not finally decided, and certainly not in   the Kosovo case—the same could be said of cases of subjugation, domination,   or exploitation of the people by its parent state where the denial of the right   to self-determination is so profound that the external right is then triggered.
 
 In the Kosovo case, the Court referred to claims that the population of Kosovo   had the right to an independent state because of that province's recent history. This is referred to as remedial secession.
 
 But the Court explicitly refused to   deal with that issue, on the basis that it was beyond the scope of the question   that was put to it. That's why nobody should take too much comfort from the   decision of the Court, because it really doesn't deal with this issue.
 
 The Supreme Court of Canada, in the Quebec secession reference in 1996,   addressed that question and again did not decide the point, merely noting that   a right to secession could possibly arise "where a people is denied the   meaningful exercise of its right to self-determination within the state of which   it forms part."
 
 At this stage it's fair to say that in international law there is clearly no   right to secede as such, but that the right to self-determination may permit   in some circumstances unilateral secession, and in such cases, international   recognition by other states completes the process and gives efficacy to the   creation of a newly created state. This legal framework informs, but only partially,   the political response to claims of that nature.
 
 From a conflict-prevention   perspective, there can be no absolutist position. Territorial integrity should   be maintained, but not by the brutal repression of a people in violation of   its right to self-determination. That right requires that there be internal   political space for the free pursuit of a people's social, economic, and cultural   development, and both international law and political reality will ensure that   only the most severe violations of that right—colonialism or its equivalent—will   trigger a right to secede or the external right.
 
 I don't want to take very much time, but I would like to turn now to criteria   outside this legal framework, because when secession claims are advanced, the   first thing we should observe is that they should be addressed by orderly, peaceful   processes. We should never advocate the recourse to force, either to advance   or block these rights. We should, instead, constantly search for orderly processes.
 
 For instance, secession should preferably be effected under domestic law. Some   federal constitutions actually provide for mechanisms for, if not their total   dissolution, at least parts of secession. Or in the case of Sudan, the Comprehensive   Peace Agreement provides for a binding referendum. That's why it's critical   to support that process. In the absence of a prescribed process, however, secession   could still be effected consensually, with international actors supporting bilateral,   peaceful initiatives.
 
 With the absence of a consensual, negotiated successful process, I suggest that the international   community should support a secessionist enterprise when the legal conditions   are fulfilled—as I said, they are very narrow—and when it is otherwise appropriate   to do so. That begs the question of when it is otherwise appropriate to   do so. That's very much the kind of environment in which Crisis Group operates   in a contextual fashion. I'll give you just a string of potential criteria that   would maybe inform the decision.
 
 The first criterion that is often advanced is the one of last resort. As I have   already discussed, claims of self-determination should ideally be resolved within   the framework of existing states. Generally, we would support independence only   where there is no hope for the conflict to be resolved or for the right to self-determination   to be fully realized within existing borders.
 
 The case of Kosovo, for example, especially after the 1999 war, made it clear   that it would have been then, and still now, impossible for the right of Kosovars   to be sufficiently accommodated within the framework of a Yugoslav or Serbian   state. Independence for Kosovo was seen as, and I continue to believe is, the   only solution that could lead to lasting stability in the region itself.
 
 In the case of Somaliland, insistence by the African Union on the increasingly   abstract notion of national unity and territorial integrity of the Somali Republic,   we believe, should not be a bar to the aspiration of the creation of a separate   state, when unity is simply no longer a feasible or realistic option.
 
 The second principle, apart from last resort, is that of popular support. The   Kosovo Albanians' overwhelming support for independence was, and remains, a   key factor. Questions of secession should be decided democratically, as in Montenegro,   for instance, through the referendum in 2005, and the forthcoming referendum   in Sudan.
 
 Crisis Group often draws attention—which is an important distinction—to   the disparity between sometimes very extreme claims of secessionist leaders   and the frequently considerably more moderate views of their wider populations,   who may be more realistic in their aspirations. We believe that is the case   of the Tamil population inside Sri Lanka and that we should be wary of much   more extreme claims often advanced by the aspirants. The Supreme Court of Canada,   for instance, insisted that the secession referendum would require at the minimum   a clear majority answering a clear question.
 
 It's important to consider also—and in my view, this is very fundamental—the   right of minorities within the secessionist minority itself and the likelihood   that their rights would be adequately protected within the newly separated state.   This will be a very important question in South Sudan after the referendum,   where there are ethnic tensions that are currently potentially suppressed by   the unity of the secessionist movement, but that will quickly emerge when the   state is constituted as an independent state. Secession may provoke population   displacement and further unrest if the newly created nation-state is unwilling   or unable to accommodate its own newly created minorities.
 
 It's often advanced also that claims of sovereignty have to be earned. In general   terms, I'm very wary of any notion that fundamental rights need to be earned.   In my view, they don't. That's why they are fundamental rights. Yet there is   no question that, for instance, Somaliland's democratic root and functioning   institutions assist in advancing the legitimacy of its claim to independence.
 
 In the same way, for instance, ahead of Montenegro's referendum in 2005, we   had argued that Montenegro was the only republic of the former Yugoslavia that   had formed a genuinely multiethnic government without internal conflict. In   that sense, it's not that the right has to be earned, but that the realization   of the right, has to be compatible with the rights of others.
 
 Conversely, at the other extreme, is the Tamil Tigers. Its brutal rule of the area   where it controlled its own people, and the atrocities perpetrated over the   years by the LTTE, including ethnic cleansing and massacres, in their treatment   of the Muslim minority inside their areas undermined very severely their secessionist   claim.
 
 A related concern is one of state feasibility. Can a territorial claim easily   be asserted within existing or easily defined borders? Is there a match between   the people and a claim to an easily defined territory or are they so diffuse   that it would be virtually impossible to have the geographic creation of a state?
 
 There are many other criteria. One that is often advanced is the question of   whether there is economic feasibility for the aspiring new state. We need to   be very careful in not setting the bar any higher than we do for existing states.   There are currently many developing countries that are extremely economically   dependent on foreign assistance, including in some cases for the support of   up to 50 percent of their budget. When looking, for instance, at the viability   of South Sudan, we shouldn't set the bar any higher than we do for existing   states.
 
 These are some of the criteria that are often advanced, even when the legal   threshold for a secessionist movement is met. We also need to consider the question   of regional dynamics and precedence. Our calls on the African Union to engage   positively with questions of separation have to also defer to their own concern   about the beginning of redrawing of borders on that continent.
 
 Finally, there is a host of intangible factors that come into play—history,   culture, language, religion, emotional—some would say at times totally   irrational—aspirations, grievances, loyalties. All these will come into   the mix of initiatives and responses that will either support or attempt to   thwart a secessionist project.
 
 Let me conclude by suggesting that international actors would be very wise to   remember the warning in the Preamble of the International Declaration of Human   Rights that people will turn to rebellion against tyranny and oppression unless   their fundamental rights are protected by the rule of law. International actors   should make every effort to promote the full respect of the right of peoples   to self-determination by national governments.
 
 In order to avoid the emergence of legitimate secessionist claims, states must   recognize legitimate grievances by their national minorities and must address   them appropriately, including by providing some form of political autonomy,   if appropriate, but certainly by ensuring political participation, as well as   social, economic, and cultural protection. Inclusive governance, the best prophylactic   against many types of conflict, also provides the best protection against secession   claims surfacing, turning violent, and being unresolvable in the first place.
 
 Even if they do turn violent, faced with the total breakdown of the   rule of law, the international community cannot blindly support the monopoly   over the use of force by governments who have forfeited any legitimate entitlement   to such monopoly.
 
 I conclude, again, by stressing that I don't think we should blindly prefer   the principle of territorial integrity over claims of self-determination when   there is no basis in law, in politics, or in any form of moral grounding for   expressing such preference.
 
 Thank you very much for listening.
   Questions and AnswersQUESTION: Ms. Arbour, my question may be a little unfair because it requires   a knowledge of American history, which may not be appropriate for a Canadian. 
 I wonder if you could apply your analysis to the situation in 1861 in this country,   where the southern states claimed that their rights of self-determination were   being limited by the federal government and the federal government insisted   that the right for territorial integrity trumped the rights of the southerners.
 
 LOUISE ARBOUR: I can't. Especially in this audience, it would be hugely   presumptuous. I just don't know enough.
 
 It's very difficult to look back, because things get resolved by a series of   factors that acquire over time their own legitimacy. This entire analysis is   meant to be prospective. It is very difficult to apply it retroactively, certainly   by someone as ignorant as I am of American history.
 
 QUESTION: In the case of a prospective Kurdistan,   it struck me that this might be a fairly unique example where you had two sovereign   states, one formerly a dictatorship in Iraq and the other is a democracy in   Turkey, with more or less outlined ethnic borders for the Kurds.
 
 How is the   ICG treating the prospective Kurdistan issue?
 
 LOUISE ARBOUR: We have not addressed this particular issue or the claim   for the formation of a separate state. This is complicated, and you pointed   out an issue that would arise very frequently, for instance, in Africa where   you see self-determination claims that are asserted against more than one state.
 
 It's difficult enough to figure it out when it's asserted against a   parent   state. In Africa that’s very much part of the concern, that the colonial   boundaries, if we are to embark on the rights of—and we haven’t talked   about what "a people" is, what this core group is that asserts the right   to self-determination.  But if we look at this on an ethnic basis, for   instance, or other forms of identity allegiance, it becomes much more   complicated if it's asserted against two states. In some cases it would   be even more than that.   We haven't addressed that particular claim.
 
 It's fair to say that we would also constantly want to promote, as I think we   must in international law, the fulfillment of the right within existing borders.   That is, encouraging existing states to democratize or permit forms of participation,   including some forms of autonomy, going as far as is necessary to accommodate   the self-determination claim within existing borders.
 
 How it then interplays   where a group of people are currently divided between two states, whether they   are both sufficiently democratic to protect the right within their own borders—this   kind of lack of unity of the group poses a slightly different question.
 
 QUESTION: Louise, thanks for a wonderful tutorial. You avoided discussing,   to my mind, the single biggest failure of the international community in this   respect, which is Kashmir, and which has now boiled over into a very violent   affair.
 
 Originally, a referendum was intended, but was never held; division   never occurred. Now there is a demand for independence, at least for part of   Kashmir. How do you view it?
 
 LOUISE ARBOUR: Crisis Group does work in the region and we have published over time in Kashmir. I mentioned that there are many circumstances. Kashmir   is one of them. It's not the only one. Abkhazia, South Ossetia in Georgia—there   are many cases in which we haven't taken a position.
 
 Even though the Crisis Group describes itself as a conflict-prevention organization,   it's fair to say our work is equally divided between cases that are conflict prevention, conflict management,   and conflict resolution. In the case of   Kashmir, we are still in a conflict-management model. Everybody would want to   advocate a resolution.
 
 In the current political landscape between India and Pakistan, there is possibly   the lack of appetite for international brokers to step up to the plate and address   this issue, since they are somewhat preoccupied elsewhere, including in that   region. What we see currently as realistic is this kind of conflict management,   trying to minimize clashes, create an atmosphere for at least a peaceful continuity   of the ambivalent status of the region.
 
 In many cases we see it as premature to take a firm position one way or the   other. It's currently exactly our view as well in the two Georgian regions.
 
 This may lead to frozen conflicts, where 30 years from now we will still   be talking about looking for options. That's exactly why in the case of Kosovo   we felt that this is the time, while the conflict is still relatively recent,   to try to unfreeze and not turn it into a permanent dispute involving the north   of Kosovo. But in the case of Kashmir, conflict management is probably the only   current realistic option.
 
 QUESTION: It's an honor to listen to you discuss these things. I have   a general question. The world has known empires where multiethnic and multi-religious   groups have survived somehow, such as the Mogul and Roman Empires.  In the   world you deal with, how much is this driven by religion or by economics or   by ethnicity? If you're an ethnic person but you are economically active and   successful, maybe that's okay. How do you see these different pressures?
 
 I'll make it easy. Just take religion.
 
 LOUISE ARBOUR: Let me just take shelter in the work of my organization   by stating at the outset that over its 15 years of existence, Crisis Group has   deliberately never done work on this kind of broad thematic basis. We feel there   are many think tanks in this country who are able to do so and are very well   poised.
 
 We have not produced these very big conflict-related thematic analyses,   for instance, of the relationship between climate change and conflict or gender   and conflict or the drug trade and conflict, although we have done some work   on that. Anything I could give you in response to that question would be largely   anecdotal and not particularly well anchored in analysis.
 
 We are easily distracted currently by the predominance of religious extremism   in fueling conflict. This comes and goes in history, and other factors will   come and go and play a part. Climate change, for instance, and severe deprivation,   particularly of access to food and water, will at times maybe look like the   dominant characteristic as a source of conflict.
 
 My own sense, for what it's worth, is that the root causes of conflict are extremely   contextual. They are rooted in the particular history, the politics of a region,   and so on. If there is the advocacy of a universal response at the stage of   development that we are in in the world at large, the best   response to the anticipation of conflict is the building of government institutions. Generally speaking, countries that have adequate mechanisms to handle conflictual   situations do much better than countries in which the institutions are very   frail, regardless of what the original trigger is for conflict.
 
 I was the prosecutor for the War Crimes Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and   Rwanda. You would be hard-pressed to think of two models that are more extremely   different in their culture, history, and so on. Yet both of them, within the   span of a few years, led to terrible atrocities being perpetrated.
 
 I'm often asked, "Do you see any commonality? Do you see any themes between   the two?"
 
 There are some. I can't tell you whether historians and others who will look   with some distance to these two conflicts will see the same things I saw, which   is a lot of pathologies.
 
 First of all, the pathology of identity and the search for belonging, which   is normally a very healthy human aspiration. We search for our personal identity   and our belonging to the immediate family, the clan. This is how we determine   the scope of our language, cultural, and religious affiliations, and define ourselves.
 
 In the case of the region of Rwanda (including Burundi and the Great Lakes)   to some extent these factors are still there. The pathology of   identity there has turned into the desire   to exclude and ultimately, in its most extreme form, to genocide and to the   actual elimination of the other, as a form of affirming identity.
 
 In the two cases also, there were pathologies of the principle of obedience,   loyalties to leaders, fed by, in the case of the former Yugoslavia, communist   ideology. In the case of Rwanda it was religious colonial teachings that   overplayed obedience as a virtue, where people surrendered their own moral judgment.
 
 There are just so many factors, I couldn't begin to do justice to it. But these   were very striking to me in these cases. The surrender of personal moral judgment   is a huge factor in mass slaughter. In both cases also there was extremely bad   leadership. This would be putting it mildly.
 
 QUESTION: I'm a New York-based lawyer. I'm originally from Kosovo. The focus seems to be on the right of self-determination of the people, but   there doesn't seem to be much thinking about the right of certain governments over   the people within their borders, to control them, to rule them, or to oppress   them.
 
 The last UN secretary-general, Kofi   Annan, the Nobel Peace Prize winner, mentioned that the first duty   of a   government is to protect its people. If it doesn't do so, the   international   community has the right to intervene and the people have a right to   secession. Why is there not as much of a focus on the government having   rights over the people   within certain borders?
 
 Your analysis of the ICJ opinion was that there is a distinction between the   legality of the declaration of independence and the legality of secession. Will   it not be meaningless if the ICJ declares that there is a legality for declaring   independence but it's illegal for secession? Will they contravene each other?
 
 LOUISE ARBOUR: I'm not a big fan of rights of states. States are constructs   that are governed by law. Certainly in what we aspire to are states that derive   their power from the democratic will of the people.
 
 I find it not particularly   useful to contrast rights of states and rights of people. In the framework of   international or universal or even national human-rights frameworks, people   have the right to turn to the state for their protection and they have a right   to participate in the system of governance to which they will then be subjected.
 
 It's very dangerous to confuse rights of states and rights of current governments   or people who lead. They have the onus of earning their entitlement to exercise   authority over their fellow citizens. But as such, states are duty bearers,   not rights holders in the framework of international human-rights law.
 
 As for the distinction in the Court's opinion, all I can say is that this is   very typical of legal reasoning. The Court said, "We were asked a narrow   question. We will provide a narrow answer."
 
 Whether there would be cases where the Court would say a unilateral declaration   of independence is not against international law, but secession itself is not   effective—this is very speculative. It could happen, if there was no international   recognition, for instance. The secession itself could not become effective,   for instance, if the newly created state received no or virtually no international   recognition or only the support, say, of one member-state of the United Nations.
 
 But this is very speculative, and the Court deliberately did not, probably correctly,   answer it. Especially in a context that is so intensely political, it's probably   wise of the Court to say, "We've been asked a narrow question. Here's the   narrow answer. Leave it to another day, where the question is posed clearly and   the debate is then formulated clearly, to answer it."
 
 QUESTION: In light of your brilliant analysis and your great knowledge   of what this whole subject is about, what can the international community do   to prevent genocide when it appears on the horizon or to prevent extremist groups   or even individuals, such as suicide bombers?
 
 LOUISE ARBOUR: In the aftermath, particularly, of the atrocities in the   last 15 years in the former Yugoslavia and in Rwanda, there have been several   responses outside the more classic arsenal of an international community response.   One of them has been the creation of international criminal justice as a tool   of conflict management: personal criminal responsibility of political and military   leaders, the creation of these two tribunals, and the International Court of   Justice.
 
 It's not the sole response, but it's a novel one that in international   law had never been used until about 15 years ago, except for Nuremburg and Tokyo,   which had not been duplicated since. It's a modest response. It's one of them.
 
 Another one has been the emerging doctrine of the responsibility to protect,     which again is really struggling to anchor itself in the body politic of   international   actors, but is offering a very useful framework. It first of all asserts   the obvious in international law, which is that sovereignty is not a   shield against scrutiny. State   sovereignty is a bundle of responsibilities. If it's understood that   way, then   the international community has an interest in ensuring that each state   exercises   its sovereignty in a way that is conducive to peaceful international   relations   and to the peaceful management of domestic disputes.
 
 Starting from that premise, that states have the primary responsibility to protect   their people, this doctrine asserts that if a state proves unwilling or unable   to protect its own population, particularly against what are called, in general   terms, mass atrocities—genocide, war crimes, crimes against humanity, and   ethnic cleansing—then the international community has a responsibility,   not a right.
 
 A right is optional. If you have a right to intervene you have   the privilege of declining to exercise it. That was the previous   French doctrine of the droit d'ingérance, the right of humanitarian   interference.
 This new doctrine speaks of the responsibility   to protect.
 
 If a state is clearly in default—that was the argument in the case of Darfur—of protecting its own population or, worse,   is in collusion or responsible for attacks on its own population, the international   community has a duty to intervene. Then there is a range of interventions—preventive   measures, engagement, encouragement—and which ultimately, under the Security Council   umbrella, could even include the use of force.
 
 This doctrine has been now, at least rhetorically, accepted within the United   Nations. But when I look at what happened a year ago in Sri Lanka, I was thinking,   where is the doctrine? People were being slaughtered on the beaches of Sri Lanka,   and the international response was absolutely nonexistent.
 
 Recently, on a smaller   scale, in Kyrgyzstan, you couldn't get the case into the Security Council, and   regional organizations—OSCE [Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe], the European   Union,   and the network of political organizations very much led by Russia—were   all totally uninterested in interfering in the internal affairs of   Kyrgyzstan. This was while the Uzbek population in the South was at   tremendous risk, including massive   displacement and killing.
 
 The framework and the doctrine is there. Its application is very much at the   mercy of political calculus.
 
 QUESTION: Could you give us some successful examples of what you call   the independence inside of borders?
 
 When you talked about independence of ethnics—I'll use Kosovo—it didn't   work. But give some examples where there has been conflict resolution, not the   fact that the peoples themselves solved it.
 
 LOUISE ARBOUR: I wish I could bring some of my more knowledgeable colleagues.
 
 Federalism has been a mechanism of accommodation. One form of response is the   granting of some autonomy, and as an example I can turn to my own country, Canada.   The federal model has permitted the accommodation of an ongoing claim by some   national peoples, the French-speaking people of Quebec, in asserting their desire   for more and more autonomy, including in some cases for the creation of their   own separate state.
 
 This peaceful accommodation is to a large extent   a factor of a very strong governance institution—the Supreme Court of Canada,   which was hugely instrumental and is very much a model looked upon by other   countries in designing a framework for the democratic resolution of claims and   participation through institutions.
 
 Different models of electoral systems and power sharing are mechanisms of accomodation.   Certainly in many African countries you would want to promote that power sharing.
 
 We cannot aspire to the elimination of conflict. In fact, in many circumstances   we thrive on conflict. For instance, we promote conflictual activity in sport.
 
 Crisis Group is interested in the prevention of armed conflict. We talk   about   conflict; it's really the prevention of violence. But clashes of   aspirations, of access, I think, are—for the many examples that have   been referred to, others might say they are far from being resolved.    They are not resolved, but as long as they don't flare   up into recourse to violence, that means we have the proper institutions   to   deal with the conflicting aspirations.
 
 JOANNE MYERS: I want to thank you for sharing your expertise with us.   It was an honor to have you with us today. Thank you.                                      Related Resources:
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